#002 Stuttering And Entrepreneurship With Iyanka Cooray Transcript
Please note the following transcript will contain errors as it is automated and is not always accurate but you will get the gist!
hi I’m Suzana Kalcic and you’re listening to life in practice podcast I’m curious about the big questions in life and how we can experience more meaning and fulfillment every day join me as my guests share their challenges successes and what it means to put our purpose our bodies and our lives in practice hello and welcome to life and practice podcast and this is your host designer and today my guest is Iyanka Cooray is a person who stutters he’s a creative director and runs his own photography business and he’s also a speech coach on the McGuire programme welcome Ivanka thank you for that thanks for having me and I’m very glad to be here yeah I’m so excited we’ve been friends for a really long time and we actually met thanks to the McGuire programme I actually recall the day very well whenever I I knew that we were going to be friends %HESITATION because basically on the choir program when we do that breathing warm up where you have to %HESITATION maintain eye contact unlike a match each other’s breathing and I remember we were in some like random church hall in Pimlico and for some reason there’s like because it’s really really quiet in the whole room because we’re all doing this this breathing exercise and then we can hear was the sound of this this chicken he keeps checking in Pimlico it was so funny and I just remember just because there’s always it’s a it’s a serious %HESITATION moment you know when we’re trying to focus on doing our breathing practices and I was just like I just was fighting so hard not to laugh and then you were trying not to laugh and it was just like going back and forth yeah it does it is a long time ago but I do remember that most of it Lee at the funny thing is I don’t think anyone else’s loss was just even notices love it but I know we will be going for it it’s just it just is too funny yeah the most random situation but exactly I think that’s why I knew that we would be friends because you’re the only other person laughing we had an action I’m excited yeah so %HESITATION obviously the way we connected was that we we both have a starter and we both went on this %HESITATION intensive speech therapy program to to work on it and overcome it and I was running could you tell me I said a bit about your speech journey and not how it was growing up %HESITATION having a stutter yes so I think I first noticed my thought that when I was five it was around the time when my mother chain my right hand from right to my from my left and my right hand for some reason he didn’t is probably an old wives tale old grandma sale %HESITATION so she being a doctor and what she did but she she thought right on the left hand I wouldn’t know what would for some reason not come across well so so she took my hand suit right and so easy to everything else with my left hand except for writing it was around that time when I noticed I was reading in the in the in the classroom but a couple weeks after that and I just couldn’t get any words out in the night I was standing bang for the class ten read something and I didn’t know what was happening to me and I remember a sandy could %HESITATION economics of the some reason my English comprehension how does see something of that and that’s when I realized that something was wrong %HESITATION and that continued for over twenty five years it was only after I moved to the U. K. when I was twenty twenty one that I I felt like I needed to do something about it to be another nine years to K. K. some courage to actually do something right and then join the program at thirty and the yes means he very different for me since then yeah tell me like about some experiences like being a teenager and like being in school because I know those are some of the some of the worst ones like and how did you cope right where you the the were you the only person that you knew that had a starter or did you have anybody to share the experience with I didn’t know a couple other people in school who had a stutter at just twenty people shed %HESITATION at the people didn’t know how to %HESITATION you talk about it it depends on the people spoke but it was something people try to hide and the more try to hide it know them the more visible it became an please save everyone should have the same for you growing up the school is never easy times things to peer pressure %HESITATION one thing I notice is cool is that people don’t really make someone make fun of someone individually so always in groups so I I feel like this people who didn’t want to make fun of us well forced to and that made life difficult is this night people take any opportunity to make someone feel small %HESITATION yeah that’s the that’s the reality of growing up when you’ve got something different when you look a little different to to others so and can you share any do you have any stories of like how did you cope with being being made fun of at school then thanks what we like when you come in like were we able to stand up to people or I don’t think I serve to many people as I am I remember there was a piece in my school because I went to Catholic school that’s a preset some point who used to get me to read the class just make make fun of me and it was %HESITATION it was a fun and exciting for him and to this day I know I used to have a an army my father went to school his grandfather in school is brothers in school so he holds all school in a in high regard but he’s telling what used to happen anything you know but this is the best cleaning the actual like teacher like the the price it was a priest it was a Catholic priest who should be no should be more supportive offer that’s horrible people who’ve gotten %HESITATION and and that yes so after I finished my a levels I didn’t step foot in this school for some reason I do want to go back because they didn’t have any any fond memories for me it was a great school but don’t think back in the eighties early nineties the teachers %HESITATION in a well equipped to deal with someone who had an S. on the different labels all and they were great teachers they were good at what they did did but don’t think they knew quite how to handle someone with with with with a disability or illness some of those different I think that’s such things I’m pretty sure things are changing now changing night you can see when you go to schools of been to see a few schools my daughter and things are very very different now there’s so much support for people who need extra help M. there was a point in a classroom where the kids are separated in into the interest so if there’s a bunch of kids who like dinosaurs that taught separately by using it but using dinosaurs and more no I’m make teaching more fun there with their room so people can go through if if the struggling with something if the angry upset which which wasn’t that definitely not a strong governance rang up so what gave you strength during that time to to keep going who I think family and friends so I always had a couple of friends who was around no one decided to so they had days introduced me in the class %HESITATION if every time we go to every time we did use ourselves a subsidy to the unca %HESITATION but I felt hi looking back I felt like I was holding those people back %HESITATION because there was so many activities like drama %HESITATION lots of clubs that they that they wanted to go to but they didn’t because we see what we can do is walk into these meetings I’m a stop at the door not go in as I’d introduce myself so so my friends it didn’t go in themselves so they suit but I’m I’m I’m I’m glad to have them at the time man of the family family was helpful but I think the lack of information about how to deal with the starter Luis was quite evident and like I said a tackle tackle that issue now you have so you’re not so great that you had a you had friends like that who were who were by your side I know it is it is really curious to me like why there isn’t as much information out there about stuttering because it’s been around for like thousands of years you know %HESITATION yes well that’s you know one of the reasons behind this podcast and having conversations like this as well as to raise more awareness and to to basically also give people whose starter confidence as well that they also have a voice that’s worthy of being hurt because I think one thing that I can relate to is like I was always the quiet ones you know and always being quiet is that what is that what you did there did you like attempt to express yourself or what what did that make you more withdrawn I think I’m I had to agree with what he said you know you are considered the quiet town because you don’t speak up and I I was and I remember that being okay having to accept the fact that people didn’t think I was smart enough to know somebody else’s because you didn’t did you put your hand I’m short of David the same for you but so I was resigned to the fact that I wouldn’t put my hand up to ask questions so now we’ll assume that I didn’t know the also it was the same at interviews so that is reading on a class I think looking back now I think if if we were I mean we were at age where we would not ten to fifteen as we get older we I I I feel like it it is awe it is almost all our responsibility to to speak up and to tell people about it of the that wasn’t I mean I couldn’t find any information about suddenly going up you you go to speech therapists who are well good at working with people who can speak impediments but not necessarily status so you know you you read with them %HESITATION but there’s there’s no %HESITATION that’s the well done on the psychological aspect of stuttering so I feel like it was a it would have been great if we had the courage to if we had more courage than we what we already had to speak up about it to go to tell people that look this is no we need we need we know shit no we know what we’re talking about we just need a bit more time I go to the teachers and tell them look and you probably don’t know how to deal with someone like me but this but then it’s it’s a lot for a celebrity and to to think about I absolutely exciting there’s just so much shame on the name is a big part of having a starter because yeah you do you feel different you can’t communicate in the same way that that other people can I think at that age people just want to fit in you know I’m being quote unquote normal and be accepted yeah and yeah I mean obviously whatever we were growing up like there was no internet back then believe it or not you know that’s how old we are %HESITATION yeah usually does so %HESITATION you know we didn’t have access as much access to resources and and information as we do now so it’s great it’s a great time to it’s a great time to be alive right now when we can %HESITATION when we do have access to so much more information and we can also spread awareness and share ideas yup %HESITATION but I wanted to also with your experiences school then looking forward to the future %HESITATION it did not have an impact on like what you thought you could do as a career he yes absolutely yeah I was resigned to the fact that I would have a quite a mediocre life in home video could job media mediocre life as a whole because I that I knew that was on the up I really want to be a pilot when I was younger I really want to be a pilot house obsessed with Ashcroft I knew all the logos of all the accessories I knew the names of the across so obsessive every time I saw pilot these guys be starstruck but it now owes told by a lot of people that having speech impediment would that would that would decide with no chance of being a pilot you know and the fact that a big losses %HESITATION which which is what I kept telling myself was the reason but so it’s it’s knowing that you’re limited to a certain roles possibly sitting at a desk or do the job where you don’t have to speak you know wait wait where you’re not required to communicate %HESITATION yeah which is which was the case for a for a little while until you know until you kind of build build up courage until there’s more awareness that that suffering is a disability and on that note we should be given the same amount of time and and the same opportunities to succeed as everyone else should be given so yeah and so what was your first job then after you need or what do you what university right there yeah so at I. D. yeah I mean was there what did you struggle a lot a university %HESITATION that I mean at a university I got by because there wasn’t a lot of presentation work and %HESITATION thanks to on my clothes because I didn’t I. T. I T. close though there were there were a couple of and did you choose I takes us which I actually wanted to do or %HESITATION but I think that the whole I. T. estate was the fact that day but he rang up his feelings that you are the I’m a doctor or lawyer R. I. T. and I was always I was psyched ideas always messing around with computers and stuff so I T. was was a choice and I I wanted but %HESITATION I did like you said being a pilot was completed the picture of the late drama I wanted to you know I used to love going to watch dramas and and musicals and I knew I had to struggle with to do them to those I used to be in a couple of bands but I was always a the funny thing about music is that you don’t start it when you sing and but even then I didn’t want to be in the front because I would have to talk at some point and to do so the bandits use myself so I didn’t want to be a singer because of that %HESITATION those happy to be the back trumping a base on that M. O. of the instrument so it so I knew what I was %HESITATION I was resigned to certain job roles %HESITATION into use hello I would cut in and said that even though like you didn’t know is that he perceived it that way but you were resigned to certain job roles yeah yeah that’s yeah because I think that’s what we’ll we’ll get all too is when you shift that perspective and like how things can change yeah not yeah so I did not know it was just me trying to it was it is the fact that we have so much involved and I was fine so you were at a space you were you thought that you were resigned to doing certain roles on like a month and you saw that that’s all that was really possible for you and I didn’t venture into jobs or experiences that you really want to because you don’t want to put yourself at the forefront you don’t wanna be the like the focus of attention because you knew that that being the focus of attention required you know speaking yep that is being like the key communicator that’s absolutely true my my first ever job while in unity was working at a chicken cottage %HESITATION so but even then I did put put myself to be at the front seven castle so it’s always at the back you know Saudi %HESITATION chicken stuff so even a situation like that it would have been difficult because it’s such a high pressure situation I would have to call out know that the names of all those so is this something that even but I do I do want to say I was looking at I had a job in my suspense is full forty five years and they really made an effort to make people feel %HESITATION equal so over time that I was given leadership roles they did not they only let us out of the day %HESITATION it was for the charge of the the whole customer service section in my senses I was given a confident thing that was when I first started getting confident I remember going to an interview at my expenses and I told the HR manager that I had a such a and and the first then the first thing she said was don’t worry Darling this is gonna be fine and this is just little things like that so I had my company’s even at the time that’s a two thousand full will probably made an effort to make everyone feel %HESITATION even feel equal equal efficiencies to people and also I feel like I was restricted as to where I want to go but then lookin M. S. wasn’t my ideal job in the first place but it was it was a great part time job when I was going to any competitors some of the other ones have done yeah and I can I can imagine the kind of confidence boost not having us having %HESITATION %HESITATION working in an environment like that were either they could recognize okay us like this fluency in your speech isn’t a big deal like you’ve got more to offer than that yeah I think that’s so so important that and more employers %HESITATION recognize them yeah I think we now know he you hear so many stories and you see every day so many different types of people with lots of disabilities of their own working in a high pressure job which is great to see is %HESITATION we all have something to offer in any situation so today on would you say I’m having a starter da da actually because we’re kind of talking about the negative aspects of %HESITATION but were there any positives I kid you Steve did you %HESITATION see that there are any gifts from us from having a starter I think of him I’m sure you would agree the Susie that having such a meant that we had to be good listeners so we we we had to for me I realized my dad got me a book when I was younger when he realized that making sensible describes called how to win friends and influence people so Dale Carnegie dot com %HESITATION the fasces talks about is to remember someone’s name make sure you mention it not every other sentence and to get people talk about themselves so that way we went with we’re talking a little but when I get in the other person talk about themselves and their automatically Saudis like you because you that you’re giving them the space so I felt like we we became good listeners over time because of our in because of our the lack of confidence with being able to %HESITATION communicate ourselves we became good listeners people could people talk to that’s what the problem was so I felt like I was also not I was always on the phone listen to people %HESITATION sitting down people talk listen to their problems and didn’t really have to say I don’t think people want people to respond to a problem you just have to listen and we and we were we if you look at the listing yeah thank you I think I thing it’s it’s definitely yeah I’d agree with me I think increased empathy levels %HESITATION now but I do wonder though %HESITATION you know with something like empathy that yeah I’m sure stuttering or having %HESITATION an experience where you face %HESITATION adversity into some respect definitely helps to develop empathy but I think on some people you know when they go through adversity even people who have a starter I have come across people who if you lack empathy and you know they are like you know some I know some assholes you know completed so I think yeah I think it’s almost like if you’re already that way inclined I think it can %HESITATION it can help to cultivate document then I think some people when they face on a diversity sometimes it can make them less empathetic on actually more %HESITATION buffs better and %HESITATION does that make sense what I’m saying yeah yeah I think people take different approaches yeah no I I understand what you mean I think what we’re trying to say is that we I mean you’ll come across people who who feel like the world is against them you know who feel like they’ve got the biggest problem in the world but then you see it you know you you see a homeless person helping not helpless hopeless person feeding the cat on the street no %HESITATION what when they put the policy in the mail on foot so I think it’s it’s how we see the world I mean if if someone feels that the world is against them and that everyone is is against them that they don’t have the capacity to be kind to someone else not at the regatta is finding that middle ground and knowing that no we we are struggling with something but that someone else might be struggling with it was something else too is kind of getting to that stage when I think that’s when we we are we’re able to kind of be more empathetic and no matter what we’re going to assess and totally I thing is about like not being so self absorbed and having having %HESITATION perspective %HESITATION I know one thing %HESITATION that Tony Robbins says is like if you feel depressed going to help someone I’m not and I’m not well because then it when you’re helping someone and you will see that you actually have a %HESITATION value to provide for somebody you know that you know you you have a valuable contribution to make there for you your service is they did it in the world starting with something like depression %HESITATION people can feel like they don’t %HESITATION laughter I think that’s kind of what I think one of the main aspects of it yeah I think I’m on the subject %HESITATION to lead nice you want to success something I want to talk about is %HESITATION I think that’s probably why a lot of people are I am moving into most social enterprise jobs doing things that are more no helping charities more helping %HESITATION thank I’m it just makes you feel better it makes you feel bad about yourself %HESITATION when you help other people even if it’s for selfish reasons you if you feel you feel good when you’ve like you said if someone’s depressed and and you go out and help someone the you know it they might get a homeless person saying thank you to you up not you you made that day and and I mean you cannot be happy cannot get at the and I get a bus of happiness when you’ve when you’ve got that sense of appreciation which you might not have got from your family or other friends around you so I think it’s great to see people one more people eat before quitting their jobs that they told today that they don’t like that they feel like Andre to contributing to society and starting up their own companies doing their own things working for charities spending the weekend helping people out I think that’s that’s probably one of the reasons like little rugs that maybe people are unhappy or depressed or anxious and not doing something to think something else to make themselves happier not them buying things that buying shit like buying dumb shit yeah totally %HESITATION because like you’ve had experience with depression and anxiety right yes absolutely and can you talk to me a bit about that like wow how did you experience it on %HESITATION what helped you these thing as someone who is suffering I’m sure you’d agree with me depression anxiety %HESITATION such a part and parcel of %HESITATION offshoot of day to life read that there were days when I didn’t wanna leave the room what did one come out no there were days that there were days where uses those not don’t go to sleep for two three days so if there’s a presentation even if the even if there’s a work party would I would now be so anxious about it for days on end %HESITATION but for days on end about not how %HESITATION come across with the who make a fool of myself whether they were introductions to be done so it’s just a constant your brain being constantly on overdrive and not be able to focus on everyday things like work but being good at what because yo yo you’re so focused on your name or you know %HESITATION what do you wanna leave the house to come up with excuses to not go somewhere to come up with no three four different also still questions whether you get one question one ounce out says it’s it’s tiring it’s it’s it’s just completely %HESITATION this is a waste of energy at the end you can spend on doing good things for yourself and for others yeah totally I think that’s one of the things that people really don’t realize about stuttering say they always just like a little %HESITATION speech %HESITATION speech impediment is just say it does fluency but they don’t actually realize the the %HESITATION psychological impact on what actually is going on inside your head %HESITATION as like what you said I could changing words or are or avoiding either set situations are conversations or like certain questions I know with me like sometimes if I would try to guide conversations in a certain way because knowing I guess someone as someone asked me certain things like I know I have to give a specific answer you know and like just having to constantly be %HESITATION like I think was a word like being really vigilant okay I was exhausting because you just like you you think oh no like because if I go this way I’m going to you know I’m I’m I’m sure I won’t be able to say this won’t be able to say that I mean at some point you must have become an expert on on how to you know how to how to come up with things so much so that people around you wouldn’t wouldn’t really notice you had had probably you you would be so good good I’m good with %HESITATION faced is %HESITATION do all good pretending to happen to be someone else %HESITATION pretends to be a certain way of certain way to suit just to get through a conversation I’m so can you give me some kind of %HESITATION can you share some experiences that you’ve had with that like have you ever gotten yourself into some deep shit during like %HESITATION changing words or %HESITATION or avoiding things like because it has it has it have you paid a high price for that I think I think I think I am it is happen often because I I used to always feel like %HESITATION I had to put myself in in situations and and then regret instantly about doing it so there was this one time at and one of my previous jobs every Friday we sit on the table as somebody to come to the question the question was emailed in the morning so we all had a compass that could be if your favorite book because in %HESITATION thanks Hannah you suspend the clip that you didn’t do any work in the morning and so we sat down for lunch and it has the whole aspect of creeping death so when your turn will come and and %HESITATION and so what is your favorite books always have three four books in mind that’s my theory books so there was there was there a couple times when I I want to see Charlie in the chocolate factory which is my favorite book but then I and I couldn’t say that I don’t see B. is cheaper than a symbol of the word the BFG so it’s it’s it’s situation where you think you’re out of the woods the new you get into it not the whole and then it’s just spirals on until until know what’s come out %HESITATION so it’s the but then you know you have to put yourself in this situation you know you cannot turn up for the lunch you can that you can doesn’t only so many excuses that you can you can make to missing situation missing events that friends invite you for specially growing up you want to create pressure you know that if you don’t turn up for events at work day and only you are gonna be paas paas on promotions when they come along because you’ll see in us %HESITATION no social night you’re seen as someone who doesn’t want to be in in in those situations %HESITATION so psychologically now you’ll you’ll you’ll you know you’re gonna be possible you you put yourself down and then and then and then regret it for a couple weeks after so do you agree %HESITATION yeah totally yeah completely agree I’m so talk to me about about like how did your perspective on all this start to change because I think now that I know you know your your nothing really like that person obviously you’re still you’re who you are but I mean and you’re not anymore trapped in a with those types of insecurities anymore yeah I think I’m the older I got and I and I do want to mention my suspense again they they really helped build up my confidence so so when I %HESITATION so I was better at I was in a slightly better place when I when it was time for me to get my first Swiss real job after I finish unique but M. it definitely saw the J. for me off to join the McGuire programme I just briefly I took the weapon a it’s a it’s an intensive course for people such as %HESITATION you know we had varying types such as %HESITATION one of the two phones covert and overt and yeah I I know I so I I wish I forget the exact this call with analysts sufferers so we we guns intensive course of four days we work on the physical and the psychological aspect of it I think it’s a psychological aspect of it that really changed things for me %HESITATION on the second the third day we go out to the streets and that actively tell people that we have such a which is something none of us most of us hadn’t done before and that the reaction you get from people if you have an open mind we see that that there’s always a lot of people who still don’t still think it’s funny on laugh but most people stop when you’re being honest so they realize that when you’re being honest about yourself you know you we say do you have a minute do you mind if I introduce myself I’ve got a sudden I’ve been given the task of speaking two hundred people so do you mind if I say my name and these people to stop people stop what they’re doing even if they were running for the trains because they want to be a part of they want to be part of it they wanna be a part of your journey and I think that’s what would have been great to have known when we were growing up that people people are nice they just don’t have that we just didn’t give an opportunity to be nice because we we felt the victim so people didn’t know how to interact with us last week if we are honest and say Hey we’re okay but we need your help to get us these numbers or to get to the next level people are yeah most ninety nine percent of people are really helpful and I find that as a coach that’s something I drive to people as well even if it’s work with a with a something to his family just just to be honest about it even at interviews and presentations it’s such an ice breaker because people will always people will always think that you’re brave to be where you are an is fighter what you’ve gone through so yeah that’s that’s what I said that’s right change for me the perception that other people will have about Assata is this completely it could be done to us you know it’s very powerful yeah I like I am I oversee went on the choir program as well and I think my perception didn’t change as quickly as yours date but definitely since going I think the %HESITATION Mogwai program was one of the like key weights of my journey I’d say because that’s that that’s when I saw things change %HESITATION I think it was probably a race from that speech therapy that’s available out there at least for me that was definitely the most effective thanks I think as you said as well %HESITATION he kind of pointed on I am saying about like you’re not the victim and I think with vocal are what I really appreciate about it is that it’s very proactive it’s very positive it’s not you know yeah I mean it gives you hope well not just hoping like shows you a way that you you are capable and you can do anything you want to do yeah the I completely agree that I think the fact that we so the sample well I think %HESITATION was gonna say where is because with some other speech therapies and support groups it’s more like %HESITATION let’s just talk about %HESITATION we have a starter my life shit you know and I can say this word yeah now I feel like shit and you know oh woe is me %HESITATION whereas wastes on environment like the McGuire programme you can still be okay I struggled with this I feel bad but this is what I can do about it this is what we can do about it I think if we just sit at home and cry yeah we need to sit at home and cries we need some type of guy yeah get your cry out and then the glass let’s go and smash it absolutely I think what also based on what you said about %HESITATION that you took a little bit more time I joined the program when I was thirty I I knew I had to I knew I had to be okay with it very soon because I was a I was running out of time in my career I I was I was lucky do you drive a light as a graphic designer but I still was working for someone I still wasn’t getting the promotion because of my speech I still wasn’t moving on in my car yes as quickly as it wanted to because of my speech and I think because of the fact that I was thirty I see I felt like I needed to put myself out there and no matter what the risk well I really like this quote from Richard Branson that %HESITATION I try and apply to every situation if if someone gives you a terrific questions right if someone gives an amazing option T. say yes no matter what and then figure out how to do it which is I think we did that at Toastmasters when we first windows mosses and someone told us to put our names on for table tough topics are I still I’m sad at the thought of how scared we were going up there for the first time just got easier and easier to and on and then now you yourself have won so many awards for table topics and evaluations and and you were the president of Toastmasters club so it’s it’s incredible what we can achieve once we’ve accepted the fact that we’ve got a sizable we it no we have that I know I eight it would be wrong in saying that some of the better speakers than the most fluent speakers all day no we bred with doing things that a lot of people still not have to think about doing so today I one thing I would say %HESITATION not not just about the having a proactive attitude but also having the right support around June I think that’s I think one of the really great things about the mopar program is just having that support network which is you know how I I got to know you and it’s act it’s it’s thanks to you the I went to Toastmasters it’s because you know I knew it well you’re the one who who who invited me to come along but knowing that you’re going to be there by my side no I wasn’t going to have to do this alone you know they also gave me the courage also gave me the strength to go and do it %HESITATION of %HESITATION I mean yeah it’s %HESITATION it’s it’s great here but then after the chicken of thought I wasn’t gonna pick anyone else does if if if we were gonna be scared out of our lives we might as well you know we we might as well have a laugh about it have some good laugh about it’s good to know but %HESITATION I’m I’m really really pleased for you I saw well you’ve done the fact that you can put like because your when we first were getting to know each other like this is like my worst nightmare thank you know there’s no way like the how you knew me then there’s no way I would do anything like this so it just goes to show like you just keep going just keep pushing keep putting in that practice like you will get they just take it one step at a time yeah the exit is is knowing that the first time it’s gonna be hard no matter what you do right now but for us Simmons hall the first run inside the first time you speak in public I think it’s easier to get easier it gets it gets more night it becomes comfort zones and I still exciting so not nerve wracking but it’s it’s a fun it’s a fun now wrecking exactly it’s not that kind of dread the thought that pit in your stomach gets my order I that this is like it’s a it’s a %HESITATION like the the feeling of nervousness is more like excitement yeah and and and and a touch on the support network you know you’re gonna be okay often even if you stumble you know you’re gonna be okay because you’ve got this support network around who’ve been through the same thing as you I think that’s that’s what we didn’t have before now if we stumbled at work we we belong to it and unless there was someone at work who felt it too failed and pathetic and and took us aside which didn’t really happen a lot but now we know we can always call someone say we had a really should dare without speech and that they did probably say no they they had a few situation that they were happy with themselves and just laugh about it and plan on what to do about it she said I think that’s what’s changed I just Sir %HESITATION change topic now and so I would like to hear more about your transition from going to a from having a nine to five job and then %HESITATION basically run running your own photography business because I can that’s a huge leap and %HESITATION talk to me about about like first of all like why and is it is it because you had that changed %HESITATION perspective of like okay I don’t have to be stuck in this job that you acts of the confidence and the capability to do what you really want to do yeah I think once you start adding those those fed this your your hot after the program %HESITATION okay I could discuss I joined Toastmasters %HESITATION I became VP of education SO good given the responsibilities became a cultural program was given other leadership roles on the program I felt that you know these are things that influence because %HESITATION don’t really put this in the name sell for as as as you know on at the end of the program you’ll get up to speak and our regional director always invites the audience to come through in no nonsense up nonsense that because they know they can do what we’ve just done it to the same level that we’ve done this in %HESITATION so I think I soon realized that I have so much catching up to do SO much catching up to do on life I I really wanted to %HESITATION once they do my own thing I I I really want to be around a lot of people every day %HESITATION I I’d I’d like I A. like hearing people’s stories I’m an I I like photography has always so annoying guy with the camera at any event %HESITATION but I thought I thought photography was an outlet for me to do that too could not be in one place to meet people all the time to to be to be empathetic to to hear people’s stories and to and to have a career that didn’t feel like a job doesn’t feel it doesn’t relate I’m like is that it’s it’s not on the ninety five it’s it’s sometimes M. six same to two AM the next day but I enjoy it because it’s it’s it’s what it doesn’t feel like a job it gives me time to it gives me time to spend with the people I love %HESITATION and like I said it’s it’s a when when you get appreciation from others about something that comes that if you like a job that comes naturally %HESITATION thus yet that’s why I decided to go for it %HESITATION I scare you to scare you to leave me a job that is comfortable at that point it’s a good very comfortable that I was good at what I was doing mmhm but I I knew if I didn’t do it then I will start with thirty three thirty four %HESITATION and and I and I quit on my thirty fifth birthday so I knew I was running out of time to do my own thing yeah so that’s that I think that’s the main reason needed wanted to want to be around wanted to be able to walk to where I want to be a wants to be able to have a three hour lunches and wants to have lunch with a friend and then go to work for now and they come at you know it’s it’s just the flexibility flexibility to do my own thing %HESITATION whenever I want to speak to kinda wanted to amazing so but that’s like a huge %HESITATION undertaking that quite a lot of people dream about and you know the %HESITATION wow yeah doing like your own thing and %HESITATION quitting a nine to five if it’s not something that that is is that is right for you I am can you take me through like some of the steps that you have to take to achieve that I’m like what what are and also what were some of the main challenges I think I mean I would like to quote a Gary V. on this %HESITATION it’s it’s it’s the it’s we have a bit of a guard you’re the one who introduced me to go by yeah I don’t know if I should have it Jeez anyone to carry we love you got a few I think what Gary Sinise’s beep that each it which is people have these ideas about what they want to but they’re like you know but you don’t have to put they don’t change their lives too much to do it it’s it’s whether whether you’re sleeping you know what when they look at like a Gary always says you know you you’ve got twenty four hours a day you you know if if you spend a total of it watching Netflix or a nose so number of it eating %HESITATION you know playing games or sleeping your you can’t expect things to change this is a great quote about change a compliment now %HESITATION is like for things to change you have to change yes %HESITATION something along the econ inspectors change if you if it’s in the same but if you’re still you’re still doing the same things you can expect to get different cells %HESITATION so it was a case of not being prepared to be rejected being prepared the amount of rejection I go to the start %HESITATION I soon realized that hi I couldn’t even afford to take a knowledge to feel sorry for myself because I was you know it if if someone canceled you know or or also known to hiring me I needs to spend the next three for us trying to compensate for that you know waking up in the middle of the night wondering how you can pay the bills so you can pay the rent %HESITATION think say that was such a part of a possible fit at the start but the bud light mmhm no but like I think the fact that we we have to be strong a growing up with a start %HESITATION that we we we built this kind of strong exterior men that I didn’t let that %HESITATION engulfed me if if that’s the right word %HESITATION say no space of okay this is happening and I think I had this ego that I %HESITATION the demo let myself down %HESITATION that I felt that I need to do to do this for myself I %HESITATION and yet twenty seven he is knowing that it gets easier M. as time went on to study become become more natural works cited to become as in %HESITATION recommendations came in I know I am people started appreciating what you do I’m AT and I truly believe that I’m people I’m trying to say so M. I’m keep it at the even even your friends close friends of family warned really say you made it on until you know until he got to the stage it’s it’s a did you know that you didn’t have %HESITATION support like didn’t you didn’t have enough support when you were during this transition from you’re you’re like full time job to your your side hustle no I I definitely support but but the what what people don’t realize it it is is the %HESITATION it it is is the amount of them the demons in your head the first no six the one near %HESITATION telling you that it is working you know any rejection this is really the right thing to do is did I do the wrong thing and then people around you want to support you you know they don’t want to and not them so it’s it’s about surrounding it was it was running myself with positive people who kept you know who who keep you going who keep reiterating the fact that you did the right thing you know and it that that that is very important having a kind of group of people around you when when things a little difficult and deserve did you ever feel like you wanted to quit I felt that there were times when I play question what I did the right thing with that because things were comfortable I was able to afford ten things I want to afford an eight and not a I took a change at all so there are times when when you when things on the same %HESITATION when when you cut with it we’ve got to cut back on on certain things until you become a Saint it is I think it is I need this at this point in my career is a really %HESITATION %HESITATION did I really want to leave the comfort of a health care and pension and stuff like that and and to constantly be worried about getting leads and but then like you said S. as things go on things as with any things get easier things start to happen and little things start to happen where you just you know you know this this is why you doing its way I used it was off to every photo shoot every photo shoot I felt this sense of satisfaction that I never got from even the job that I like the satisfaction that you’ve just done something that you absolutely love to do and you’ve got so much good feedback out of it and you’ve been able to make people happy by doing something you love that’s satisfaction has has not gone away and I hope it never goes away because it it it just it keeps it keeps me going for another day until the next next until the next shooting Dylan actually is justice just an incredible feeling and %HESITATION yeah that that’s what keeps me going this is Todd affection %HESITATION do something you love and being I’m not up I know that I’m making a living out of it it did kick it comes with the if it comes in time now making money out of it comes in time but the satisfaction %HESITATION the the impact it has on on someone’s meant mental health %HESITATION you know you’re not waiting for Saturday and Sunday or or the two days that you’re off your no you the given the people who hate Mondays and it is such a common thing you you go social media Monday comes along you gone socially like okay caught really under you need someone to be happy that you’re alive but no okay you hate Mondays the day going to work I’m going into an office I think that we different now you know I I I can I can I get to go into companies where they work culture so different as dogs running around people can work from wherever they want to %HESITATION gate it’s very different now to what it was ten years ago but they’re still one of the people we know who we can have an impact on on the rest of the team where site I don’t have that now and I it’s it’s completely up to me about the how I feel and do it if every every every time I take a train to this incredible city I feel I feel very lucky that going to do this that something left to know yeah it’s amazing so how long it said it takes for that transition so were so when you were working full time and then you were able to quit your job to to go and do the photography full time how long was that period so I’m hello hello I was quite fortunate in a way because my previous company and last year we moved into a a we work which the coworking space that’s what that did for me was so I will see you Monday for about a year but then I I soon realized that this this is an opportunity for me to be an officer to do my job but at the same time to get knowledge to get potential clients for my future move so that said they came a point where a swatch in the morning to lunch and lunchtime %HESITATION called on the floor and take photos for a company with without without my company nine and then in the evening so you said the same thing so I was able to build up a bit of a portfolio I’m in oak hopefully a full six eight months before I decide to quit so you it so it it it it it wasn’t a case of condos anymore I quit and then what do I do now I realized that I could take use of the opportunity to work with other clients so I’ve got there are certain companies I still work with them three is on %HESITATION companies that have kept the two or three people growing up another thirty forty %HESITATION which which is it which is great so that I I I feel like it does something %HESITATION you know when when people do decide to quit I think we have to think about having some sort of income to sustain Noam basic ran not to be able to feed yourself and then being prepared to work twenty hours a day until you get to the stage where we can we can get rid of a tells of the day so you can spend you can twerk traverse city sep twenty but that has to happen four feet of time %HESITATION to be able to get to say we can cut down on on the aspect that you don’t like you gotta be able to do both no twenty also twenty one other day twenty two hours a day eighteen hours a day until you get to say you can say I quit when you know that you can make this work says sorry then did you say that that that time here took about half a year yeah I I did if I did if I did the from sixty four to six months I did that for about six to eight months okay and it was only because then I mean it was still it was still nothing compared to %HESITATION where I needed to be to be able to sustain them in on a monthly basis but they did give me an idea of who I can talk no people I can market to and I and ended up as soon as I could I ended up getting a membership for another we work because that’s where I had already built up a customer base so yeah I I found the whole the whole call working and I think we have it in London S. S. such a blessing yeah and so basically when you left like your %HESITATION %HESITATION your %HESITATION finances like from %HESITATION photography weren’t really completely comfortable saying it was still a bit you know %HESITATION thank you could do with a bit more than like it was basically it was just covering your basic needs or wasn’t even slightly under the yeah I mean he had the most basic of needs because that because I was only I was only doing photography lunch times and yeah that that that that’s not enough to sustain the but when what was it %HESITATION beneficial for me is that my my last two years of my job I was given the role of operation manager and which which gave me a I’m a surge was a big switch switch from graphic design away where you’re not really thinking about this aspect of it the so focus on the visual element of a I know you’re not concerned with the whole this is Ron how much money comes in a much money goes out we’re still studios and give me an option to to see what what the penny subbing spend whether that you know what with us whether your supply whether you need to do to hire someone to do a job whether you do it yourself with that you know and all aspects of running a business this source I felt I had all these %HESITATION I was building the skills to be able to run a business and then I was being a that was gonna make it somehow that was gonna make it work somehow with the skills I had amazing %HESITATION unless you I’m just a bit about %HESITATION the %HESITATION the marketing side of things %HESITATION like how did you %HESITATION get clients like how did you approach people %HESITATION because obviously %HESITATION with having a speech impediment what you said before you were like trying to you were almost you were avoiding speaking situations like putting yourself %HESITATION there are like being out there at the forefront and like obviously this required a lot of communication skills like %HESITATION persuasion and it is so many things so can you tell me about like what what was what was it like I what was it like at the start when you were %HESITATION approaching clients and like trying to get leads and everything so so appropriate class we what we spoke spoke about before when we had a not a starter we can control we were our our biggest killers that the fact that we were good listeners and that’s such a great marketing tool %HESITATION so if I ate if I got it if I get in touch with somebody someone gets to touch me I would even back saying Hey I can come over for coffee or do you wanna come no I because he said he would come over for coffee so when when meeting someone face to face with the process run out I I started in front of people who know you you’ve lost the program myself sata I’m meeting someone for the first time and then allowing them to talk about the business being being genuinely interested in someone’s basis I don’t think that happens often enough you know it’s most people will send email saying these on my race is what I do this what I’ll provide rather than no researching on someone’s Cutten basis what makes I mean most of these were the people you meet our business owners themselves they they they’ve they’ve they’ve started their own business because they’ve got a story with it with a to help a loved one but the no getting them to talk about the business S. I found this such a great marketing tool %HESITATION so when I felt thank you when I used to leave the room I know that that date they would they would hire me not because of my photography skills on itself but because the whole because of how it made them feel and because how they believe it that I will take the business forward and how will care about the business rather than talking to them about how good I am and what I’m what I’m doing because I I I I certainly don’t believe that if there were if there were three or four photog was in a row that I wouldn’t be the strongest photographer out there but what I would bring all the skills that I had pre require is the ability to listen and to be genuinely empathetic to capture someone someone and and that and that Mrs yeah I love that that’s amazing and that’s always a worked out really really well for you yeah I I think it is is is a skilled up I’m no face to face communication is a skill that no people should be I mean the that that’s why people have faced with meetings and that’s why people have a fine lot of interviews don’t happen noting the scary room but in a coffee shop so that people know that the person coming for the interview that that the the objective of the interviews not to scare someone off the objective of the interviews to to bring out the best in the present so they they’re hiring the best person for the job so things are changing now face to face you know this there’s nothing like it I don’t think email %HESITATION even you know video conferencing no that’s it overseas a lot better than you miss by justice meeting kind of coffee just just having a conversation about what they care about is that we don’t S. S. such a sure fire way of getting them to getting them to like you which which means there’s a height highly highly that’s a likelihood that they might pay for the job because they like you know because you’ve got this portfolio not because you use all the equipment no because because I can yeah a hundred percent I completely agree with that I’m like thus %HESITATION one of the one of the aspects that your point about the importance of face to face communications which is why I’ve decided to do my part because this way as well because a few people so all why do you just like why what why are you bothering like with with all these cameras you can just do like a zoom call you can do this I’m like no I don’t think so no I won’t I won’t face to face I want I want these things yeah I want I want to have the %HESITATION I contact one I wanna feel the vibe you know what I want to be able to smell the person in the listening to twenty nine to twenty ten nineteen but you still talk to someone to Conn hit them yeah this reception the basis is like being in someone’s presence and being present yeah with someone there is nothing nothing like it nothing like it yeah %HESITATION and oversee like you’ve seen how powerful that can be like for us to to help you to run your business so even though technology is amazing and it helps us in so many ways but still like it still comes down to the very basics of what’s really important in human communication yep that’s right I mean %HESITATION I mean this some of these meetings %HESITATION introductory meetings that I go to we we hope we wouldn’t we hardly talk about the actual job now like it could be about you know could be about a movie this nice something I’ll do my research before I go in but I’ll cut them and then and then towards the end of the meeting okay okay so so we’ll see we’ll see to mmhm so that showed me early on the people on people are hiring the best photographer which which is good news for me time and has a long way to go for me as in the photography but what I have what I bring to the table is is my ability to to be used to it too to be to be at to take someone’s but when he was a bassist two six six with passion and to it to tell %HESITATION to take some passion and to dive into it to be a part of it rather than say you know it’s how this how I’m gonna do my job so how does it make you feel then we need to think back to like how you were as a teenager or as a young %HESITATION adult just %HESITATION having so much fear and avoidance around communication and now when you’re running your own business is actually your communication skills are your greatest asset and your biggest this is your biggest selling point how how does that make you feel it’s crazy I mean I’m I’m sure does the Feeney you’ll go through daily the fact that now what you doing now what with the podcast with Toastmasters any public peaches so some of what really %HESITATION so I think it is it just goes to show that we can we can turn our lives around no matter no matter what what what what sort of us and I am now looking back part of me is glad that we went through some of that because there are people now who would say snow flakes but %HESITATION not had to struggle as much as we have who are comfortable being in positions %HESITATION because they wouldn’t be able to cope with it if if they’re put in that situation so was we I think no matter what what the world trucks throws at us we we know will come out of it because we have come out of it %HESITATION so regularly and even if we tried it out we’ve come out of it %HESITATION I think that’s so in a funny way I’m almost gonna glad that we’ve kind of gone through what we’ve gone through growing up even though it was nice of the time even though we missed out on a lot of opportunities when making up for it now and that’s what matters totally yeah I think %HESITATION %HESITATION adversity can be such a powerful way to to shape one’s character he and Tess warns that determination as well yes I think %HESITATION met now these skills are what makes this far more employable than average choke %HESITATION because of what because of the extra skills we bring to the table and not not just academically things things have changed now you know people looking for windows no no no that’s that’s wrong what people are looking for someone with passion someone someone who’s got a story to tell yeah someone who who will who they know will will get things done because they know that someone who make it happen yeah because it because they’ve been through hardships and then you know they’ll they’ll be able to %HESITATION deliver yeah I’m just beginning to to wrap up the time goes so quickly and so on what have been like some of the key practices that have helped you overcome challenges and attain success like what are the things that you’ve had to do daily and you know really be consistent with I think the question I do at first I did talk with the word success at them to do what success means different things for different people of course for some people it’s about the ability to buy a Ferrari for some people it’s about the going on holiday but I think for me sex is more than all of those things is is happiness is it is it is about ending the day %HESITATION beginning the day it being excitable due to do %HESITATION ending the day excited about what you’ve just done %HESITATION there are times when I’m up at two three in the morning %HESITATION some cells thus the buzzing from the next on the day before and supposing for the next day which sauce and a few others but better but it it it’s %HESITATION the buzz yes %HESITATION the it is what I I think for me success is happiness and a joy in them in in doing something that you ought to really feel passionate about so I think daily practices would mean being at thing working hard no working hard on I’m constantly learning constantly learning and we can learn anything nowadays you can learn anything on YouTube channel by reading there’s no excuse for not not constantly trying to be be good at what you’re doing %HESITATION have you think well for the most important thing is having the right people around you having the right people around you the the positive people I don’t mean the people who are not going through something the people who are positive and empower other people you know I am having a group of people you could consider going to have coffee with who told me I did I will tell you their ideas and who know who collaborate with you is just to the right team right people so if it means if it means cutting out people who haven’t done anything wrong too but what what you know what the right and you need then there has to be done no you don’t spend any you don’t have to open the day with someone that that does leave you feel so positive after the meeting that is so just having the right people around you just having the right people around you who you can grow it people who are they may be struggling wheels no we’re all struggling into something they are struggling at some point in life but we can go together with the people who bring you down yeah I think it’s like %HESITATION when when people talk about positivity at least from my perspective it’s not about being %HESITATION delusional or like not seeing what’s there I’m not having the space to be able to say like Hey I’m going through a tough time here like I’m struggling they for me positivity is about being more focused on %HESITATION creating solutions rather okay %HESITATION were were like right you know we find ourselves in a shitty situation right now but instead of talking about how shitty it is let’s think about how can we get out of that shit yeah the social and that’s where the the right people come come in handy %HESITATION the people gonna pick you up %HESITATION when you need it X. M. twenty that it takes extra boost yes I think I mean I don’t think working hard ever ever goes out of style working hard and and and and and because we make sure your keep coming back yeah I think that this is Carrie strong this %HESITATION face enjoy the process enjoy the process of %HESITATION that the marketing out there still people on the basis who don’t like certain aspects of I think that’s fine and that’s that’s when you hire other people to do this said last week %HESITATION but but specially at the start you could enjoy every process of it the the the marketing aspect of aid to notice any emails out that M. the tax aspect of it which I still haven’t found a way to enjoy it %HESITATION but it’s M. which which now I’ve I’ve been able to get someone to to deal with that side of it so %HESITATION the one thing that you stress me out about the business it is now no longer a stressful thing because he go please deal with it %HESITATION so I’m enjoying every aspect of it enjoying the process enjoying it now the hot enjoying building the website enjoying doing the marketing enjoy writing copy and and and not just a known not just the reason what why you why you went to the doctor and joint holding process tell today %HESITATION I agree because I said that’s essentially what what what what what what what you’re doing because like the the goal isn’t to get the job done like the goal is to do the job yeah I think and and and and the goal is not even an and and most of us and goals are the salary and that the amount of the payment for the job but if you haven’t if you’re not enjoying the the process of getting then joined the company enjoyed the people you work with them you know it’s it’s it’s not the right business turning so I am what do you value most and how do you put it into practice the very most I think being around the right people for me this career move has given me the ability to spend a lot more time with my daughter with my wife with my family %HESITATION it even if it means that I’m up at two three AM just to just to cover up for the you know the work I need to finish because the no no no one else is gonna do it but it’s given me the flexibility to be able to do that no I’m I’m not a I’m no I’m I’m able to take my daughter off for a cut spend two days with them and the rest of the world is working %HESITATION no I’m I’m I’m able to have lunches and have coffees with friends die if someone’s got a day off or if someone’s doing the same thing as we know what we will will go to the museum in the morning from nine to twelve and then we will when will go for a job in India I’m the afternoon you know it’s it’s it’s the ability to M. kind of a I’m having the freedom to spend your time with doing the things you like and with the people the people you want to do things with I think that’s what’s different now resonate even if it’s a nine to five job there I’m sure that that there also be a week we’d like a week long we’ve become friends with but that that that’s eleven element of you what you have to be here at a certain time you have to be here %HESITATION you have to separate these people you have to it was like I said with that things are changing now and companies that things are different now but now the asked to complete the complete because I mean but then on the flip side that they’re afraid of a lonely times that there are times when you know when at times when nope %HESITATION like I don’t remember my first year I certainly didn’t have to have a work Christmas party to go to you know when you see you see how incredible actresses bodies were and study no %HESITATION there’s no so you can if you lose that side of it at the start but then you build your circle you know is your clients become kind like you work family union forced to now sit with them on database so you you %HESITATION you become they become your family because you pick them now they pick do you pick them and it becomes a circle people you want to be around and I remember before you also touched upon the importance of empathy and kindness yes yeah yeah it does %HESITATION what was lost for the question again was based at what what do you value most yeah and how do you put into effect as yes so yes I think that having the freedom to do what you love and to connect with the people you care about most another C. like how you’ve done this like through changing like what what you do %HESITATION and being able to transition from your job to running your own business and and and yeah on on what you talked about on %HESITATION is it empty and kindness is I find it is the biggest tool is the biggest marketing tool for my business and I think it is Publicis aim for a lot of businesses %HESITATION because most people I need someone to be honest I’m gonna care about that product their business there they know that their idea and I can give me an example of like how you practice empathy and kindness in small ways because I I believe that the devil is in the detail or not just the devil but the angel is in is is in the details while I think those are it’s the it’s the %HESITATION accumulation of those small actions consistently over a long period of time D. that dust that’s I sometimes what matters more than than like a grand gesture so I’d love to hear some examples %HESITATION hi vis a yeah and I definitely Sir I A. one one examples I work for this company called change please and they what they do is they miss their social enterprise so they they get homeless people off the street and then train them to be better service and then they they give them a job they find a place to live so this company as being good for three years now and I do the photography for them because they’re based out of Miami like and now that they’re Richard Branson I took them on board and now that the only coffee supply on virgin trains will connect us well you know tells so so it’s S. as seen with the pictures with the with the owner which Richard Branson and if this guy who know decided on thing it’s my work space what you see down ten day else leaving it slaving away and one thing we do on these when I do the photography is we tell stories off the homeless people’s you know and is this %HESITATION so when I am taking the photographs I get them to get them to to talk about the stories give them an outlet to speak M. S. yeah I I’ve I’ve I find it it on the find as a photographer I had I had that opportunity to be able to do that it whereas you know someone it someone in another profession just just don’t have the one to one connection with with with with with that person so it’s just me and him in a room %HESITATION at some point he forgot that I was he was being photographed because I was getting to talk about why he went home the sooner you can get it seemed getting emotional and at the end of the day no he he he forgot that he was being photographed we had the story and that gives give me another idea so sort of the social and starters idea call in between service %HESITATION that I’m that I’m doing a photoshoot tomorrow with with with with with that this is part of that I’ve found through my photography so we are going to restaurants stopped them and way into chefs the service call in between service so we we we talking to chefs about how they feel working high precedent but what did what they eat because apparently most of don’t read to cover themselves with their they they create these the Michelin star food for someone and that they have to quickly grab a sandwich so it’s very chill we we doing official tomorrow and we have what we can we will put change please see if they can kind of work with us the real excited about that as it is this an opportunity as I feel it is my duty as a photographer to give someone that opportunity to tell the story and to create a space where people almost feel like they’re stuck with me right there they have to get the photograph done so they might as well tell the story and that’s what makes it work that’s why people cannot attend to open up because they’re they’re in the space anyway no they come right away they want to get the for the photos and then the mice will tell the story some yes some comedic excited for that project as well we will approach a few other restaurants and hopefully that sounds amazing I just say %HESITATION just to and things like what what would you what would your advice be for someone who has a starter on maybe he wants to start their own business I think I’m to be honest with themselves is to be honest about the subtle you know a study doesn’t have to hold back a set of holes is back if we let it hold us back and we yeah I recommend you know if if you suck if this is a such as uncontrollable there’s always a lot of things out there there’s also a program to go to the visitor piece you can do to gain some form of control some form of fluency %HESITATION this Toastmasters where you can become a more eloquent speaker that you can become a comfortable speaking in public %HESITATION so see that that that’s one thing I recommend to the site if if someone has an if someone has an uncontrollable such a no %HESITATION I think it’s it’s it’s it’s important to get to the level where you feel comfortable confident to be able to approach people and talk to them regardless of whether you start or not they want to go to this page C. H. mmhm it’s about being honest or dishonest but being honest and and using our skills as good listeners to you know to to Saddam since I think yeah that that’s what we can do anything we wanted to and that had nothing to stop us yes hello yeah I love that thank you so much younger that’s that’s been amazing we’ve like yeah I keep talking to thank for hours %HESITATION if someone like to find out a bit more about your work and they find you %HESITATION so of I mean they can find me on my website %HESITATION it’s famed fantasy dot com I’m on Instagram website to send me a message %HESITATION I’m also a coach on the McGuire programme so he can find me that as well but in any form I’m linked in any form of communication I’m I’m always happy to talk to people I love talk love so it is always great I always think of someone someone getting in touch as a way of going through the journey together it’s it’s never about because I don’t feel like I bring anything more to the table than being a good listener and that’s what I think will ease %HESITATION it’s great that we we we we have the ability to do now another amazing thank you so much I’ll make sure to provide all of the links to %HESITATION to all of your social channels on your website and all that this being amazing thank you so much Erica about the development of enjoy thanks I misses you have really enjoyed it yeah you know I’m sorry M. that’s great S. thank you so much and %HESITATION if you enjoy this podcast please make sure to subscribe and also if you thought that this this episode %HESITATION could benefit someone else %HESITATION make sure you share it with your friends otherwise we’re looking forward to catching